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Will Mann Posted: 13 Jan 2009 16:52

Bob Rendell of Leadbitter is complaining about how difficult is to get on national frameworks like BSF if you're not a major contractor. And Leadbitter are hardly small fry - they turn over about £500m.

Are there any regional contractors or SME contractors on this forum who can share their experiences of trying to get on frameworks?
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danny boy replied on 14 Jan 2009 11:41

It is killing small local contractors like us.

All frameworks have made it tough, but previously you would get a few bits and pieces like new roofs, etc. dropping out of frameworks which we have picked up - crumbs from the rich mans table!

But with BSF there is less dropping out we are finding.

What makes it worse is there isn't the commercial work around now either.

Time someone stood up for the little guy.

 
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The Boss replied on 19 Jan 2009 9:51

 

danny boy:
Time someone stood up for the little guy.
 

Same old story. Today there's more news of the banks being bailed out AGAIN! Who's footing the bill for this? That's right, the little guy. It's like some credit crunch Groundhog Day.

Even if the banks start lending again, I'm not sure how quickly previously abandoned commercial projects are likely to resume. With so much bad news of companies going into administration, spending is bound to be more cautious.

The scrapping for what's left on BSF contracts looks set to continue.

 
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Molevalleyman replied on 20 Jan 2009 0:14

Large regional contractors could be "wiped out" unless Building Schools for the Future (BSF) schemes are opened out beyond a small group of national contractors.

How true that surely is - Bob Rendell needs to be aware that ROK are involved also...nice company Leadbitter, have worked on some of their jobs as 'Tech Rep' for various housing associations <sigh> those were the days!  Embarrassed

A Few Questions are answered here:- 

What will BSF mean for my child? The programme will mean that all children and young people will benefit from well designed and efficient 21st century secondary school buildings and facilities. Improved school buildings can also improve educational standards and have a positive effect on everyone who uses them. In addition, schools will be able to make their enhanced facilities available to the wider community so more people can benefit.  What evidence is there that better facilities improve the standard of education? The BSF programme is based on the theory that, while there can be good levels of attainment in bad buildings, and poor attainment in relatively good buildings, all students will benefit from improved facilities and a modern learning environment. The new facilities will empower teachers to teach to the best of their ability, and students will become more motivated to learn in an environment which encourages engagement. Experience from our previous rebuild schemes has shown this to be case.  What about consultation on the proposals? All the normal processes associated with major changes to schools will apply, including the need to undertake consultation. We intend to actively involve teachers, parents, students and the wider community in developing proposals for new facilities. Will every secondary school be rebuilt? At a national level, the government is providing funding based on the following split:  50% new build  35% major refurbishment  15% minor refurbishment  We will be looking at each school on an individual basis to determine whether it needs rebuilding, refurbishing or some minor remodelling work. Details of the plans for each school will be published on this site once available.  Are you 'selling the family silver'? There are no real alternatives to using a public-private partnership to rebuild and refurbish schools on such a large scale at the moment – a totally new school can cost around £25m. There are also a number of advantages to using this approach:
The burden on school management can be eased, giving the school more time to concentrate on delivering the curriculum and raising levels of attainment  The contractor has to provide a good quality maintenance service for the duration of the contract – which gives them the incentive to build a good quality facility in the first place.  
 
What if there are shortfalls in the contractor's standards?
The contractor will be incentivised to ensure that quality is maintained. Payments can be withheld, and, in the worst case, the contract can be terminated and re-let to another contractor. The schools' interests will be protected in such circumstances.  Will having community services on-site distract the school from delivering education? The school's governing body will decide whether the school should offer additional activities and services, so they will need to be satisfied that any services are appropriate. Services provided generally complement the main teaching and learning activity within the school, and can also reduce the burden on teachers by addressing students' wider problems, so teachers can concentrate on teaching. Additional services can also encourage parents to become more involved in the school and their children's learning.  How will staff be affected? Teaching staff will not be affected in terms of their contract, but there may be some transfer of employment of non-teaching staff to the contractor, under the TUPE (Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment)) regulations. This might include caretaking, cleaning and catering staff, and ICT technicians. Staff and unions will be consulted as soon as possible and will be kept informed throughout the process.  Does the process allow for phased builds? Yes, although this will have to recognise the need to avoid excessive disruption to the operation of a school.  What will happen to students during the construction and demolition process? Disruption will be kept to a minimum. Students will continue to attend their existing schools, which will remain open until the new buildings are ready for occupation.

 

What do you mean by '21st century facilities'? Many school buildings are of poor design, are dull and uniform, and have an institutional look and feel to them. They are also inappropriate for the way education will be delivered in future. For schools to be able to provide excellent educational facilities for the next 20-30 years, designs for new schools and major adaptations will need to take account of current and likely future developments in education and technology. For example, there may be impacts from the provision of a more diverse curriculum for 14+ year olds, new ways of learning and use of ICT, opening up the school to the wider community, and including students with special education needs into mainstream schools where appropriate. The buildings will serve their communities for many years to come, so they need to be attractive and of a high quality. The designs should therefore encompass things such as sustainability, flexibility and adaptability, and value for money.  
 
Will there be much disruption to the local community? It is impossible to guarantee absolutely no disruption to the community. However, we will carefully assess the track record of potential contractors to identify those who take great care not to disturb communities.  Will all schools be constructed at the same time? No. We intend to split the programme into a number of phases. We envisage that work will start on the first schools in 2007, and work on all schools should be completed by 2014.
 Will existing schools be closed? There are no plans to close any schools.  What will BSF mean for the local community? The community will benefit from extended access to school facilities and resources. All schools will offer a range of facilities for the community, such as childcare, leisure, parenting classes, adult learning classes, and access to computers and ICT. The schools will also be a more welcoming, engaging learning environment for students, helping to reduce absenteeism and truancy within the local community.  What happens if the Council or Government change politically – will BSF be scrapped?

The BSF programme has the backing of all major political parties at present.

 

We have however, missed out the most important factor - S.K.I.N.T 

 

 

 
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The Boss replied on 20 Jan 2009 11:18

Great Q&A MVM.

Particularly like the most important factor!

Big Smile 
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danny boy replied on 20 Jan 2009 11:40

Molevalleyman:

Large regional contractors could be "wiped out" unless Building Schools for the Future (BSF) schemes are opened out beyond a small group of national contractors.

How true that surely is - Bob Rendell needs to be aware that ROK are involved also...nice company Leadbitter, have worked on some of their jobs as 'Tech Rep' for various housing associations <sigh> those were the days!  Embarrassed

A Few Questions are answered here:- 

Sorry Molevalleyman - I'm not sure what relevance all that has to why smaller contractors are missing on BSF?
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Molevalleyman replied on 20 Jan 2009 14:26
My apologies for any confusion Danny Boy, I too have been researching BSF and it’s a jungle! BSF is about putting a one-size-fits-all approach into schools, installing a managed service run by companies who are more interested in profit than in the education of our future generations. Innovation in IT will be taken away from professionals and teachers in schools, and placed in the hands of private sector companies, away from those who care, and given to those who want their Christmas bonus. The dynamism, innovation and pace of IT in education will die with BSF. What I am trying to get across is, that by it’s very nature, BSF surely isn’t for small companies to be dealing with, it’s far too Partnership and dictatorially controlled and a ‘closed-shop’ / Jungle for example, some comments from school staff:- 
  • “With BSF the local education authority is not a service provider, it is a service dictator. It will waste more money than I’ve ever seen” 
  • “Thanks to BSF, practically all technical staff in schools will be out sourced to private companies. The remaining teaching staff is severely restricted in their ability to innovate without sound technical backup, which the replacement toner-drones will be unable to provide”.
  • “The scheme stands accused of allocating inadequate budgets to smaller builders - If a school is being built on a shoestring, it won’t have the innovation that is required” - Paul Bettison, leader of Bracknell Forest Borough Council.
  • “I’m not sure if I can equip my new secondary school with the interactive whiteboards I have in my primary schools, because I don’t have the money. I’m £8m short and having to build 300 houses on a piece of the playing fields to make up the shortfall.” 
  • “How do we, as governors, fulfil our legal responsibilities if the decisions are being made centrally and the schools don’t know what the costs are? BSF excludes smaller innovative companies, putting IT backwards and potentially creating mini-monopolies within local authority areas.”
  • Independent education IT consultant Steve Molyneux said anything like attempts to create “classrooms of the future,” could waste huge amounts of money, “This could turn out to be the biggest white elephant of all time. They’re in jeopardy of seriously damaging education for the next two decades,” he said.
And it's not going to be easy for smaller companies to get in on the act. To be approved, companies must tender to be accepted onto a framework agreement. Suppliers are rated on factors such as financial stability and length of time trading. This will ultimately favour tier one suppliers, excluding the smaller companies.
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steely dan replied on 20 Jan 2009 16:13

everyone's looking at BSF at the moment but its just too hard to get on the framework. Just seems to be all sewn up. I know lots of contractors like us who are putting lots of time into it but to no avail.

If your not one of the big boys you dont stand a chance.
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danny boy replied on 20 Jan 2009 16:24

Hi Molevalleyman. I take your point about the nature of BSF contracts being extremely complex and perhaps beyond the scope of smaller contractors. Also that the approval system is extremely onerous and probably biased in favour of the big boys.

But why have this one size fits all system?

Sure, you would probably want an experienced company installing sophisticated ICT. But not all BSF work is going to be like that. Sometimes you'll have straightforward refurb jobs that would be perfectly within the scope of a local contractor.

And the biggest joke is - you'll probably have some of the big tier one suppliers subbing that kind of work to local firms - but still creaming off their margin!
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Molevalleyman replied on 20 Jan 2009 17:39

Danny Boy

"One Size" is all about Money, 'Stake' / 'Share' call it what you like but one thing is certain...if this industry doesn't go back to the drawing board PDQ and re-design Construction protocol, allowing Builders to take back Building, the industry is most certainly doomed to failure. 

 Regards

MVM
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Ruddy Lawyer replied on 27 Jan 2009 14:51

I suppose it depends on whether you want to limit the discussion solely to BSF. 

Many housing associations actively look for SMEs when putting together their frameworks as they recognise the extra value they can bring.  Some have had difficulties in persuading companies to tender, others have had to drop tenderers on the basis of silly mistakes due to not reading the ITT.

Perhaps that begs another question for the contractors - what do you find difficult about tendering for frameworks?  What could employers do to help you?
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danny boy replied on 27 Jan 2009 16:05

Ruddy Lawyer:

others have had to drop tenderers on the basis of silly mistakes due to not reading the ITT.

 

This highlights the big problem for SMEs - we do not have the same resources available to tender for frameworks (and indeed other contracts) compared to the big boys.

The amount of time we waste on PQQs is unbelievable - and whereas a larger contractor might have several people working on one tender, at a small firm it will be just one.

Also - a lot of the stuff in PQQs is around softer issues, eg. the environment, which an SME struggles with but again a big contractor has someone with specialist knowledge to handle that kind of stuff.

That's why the 'silly mistakes' creep in - there is too much paperwork and not enough time to fill it all in.

 
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