In the light of the new HSE 'working at height' leaflet which shows that rooflights should be changed and maintained from a cherry picker, does any one know where training and demonstrations of this method of working can be obtained?
For cherry picker training, try your nearest IPAF training centre.
Think there's an IPAF training instructor on here who might be able to help.
I have not seen this leaflet. I don't suppose you have an electronic version of it? Or can point me to anywhere it exists online?
I would be very surprised if this covers all rooflights. On a flat roof with edge protection I don't see what would be gained from using a cherry picker for access. There is also the issue of whether ground conditions would be suitable for a cherry picker.
Is this the HSE leaflet you mean?
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg284.pdf?ebul=cons/dec08&cr=3
If so, it doesn't say anything anything about cherry pickers being compulsory for roof lights.
The Work at Height Regulations are all about minimising risk, and choosing the right equipment for the job in question according to the level of risk involved.
If, for example, the roof light you wanted to replace was on a fragile roof, and you could access it comfortably using a cherry picker, then obviously that would be the route to choose.
If, on the other hand, the roof light was on a flat roof with sufficient support, and had the appropriate edge protection, then I do not see why you would need a cherry picker.
Yes, this is the correct leaflet.
While it does not state that cherry [pickers are compulsory, the leaflet says:-
Roof workers need the appropriate knowledge, skills, training and experience towork safely, or should be under the supervision of someone else who has it.
The leaflet shows a picture of a rooflight being changed from a cherry picker and I would like company operatives to be able to do this job safely. The average experience is over 15 years changing rooflights but they are unable to see how the rooflight change can be gone from a basket. As per the leaflet the operatives clearly need more training but I am unable to find a company who can train them in this technique.
Can you please assist to identify such a training company where practical experience can be obtained with this activity. Please note that the picture in the leaflet shows only one man in the cherry picker basket where two men would normally be required. And there is no evidence of a new or old rooflight in the basket – was this a ‘staged’ picture or is the caption wrong?
rooflight:The leaflet shows a picture of a rooflight being changed from a cherry picker and I would like company operatives to be able to do this job safely. The average experience is over 15 years changing rooflights but they are unable to see how the rooflight change can be gone from a basket.
Previously - ie. before you became aware of this HSE leaflet - how did you change rooflights like this?
We have always used a machine to gain access to the roof and crawling boards to access the working areas. Crawling boards are used around the rooflight with operatives using harness and lanyard.
HSE have said that where fragile roofs are concerned, you should not walk on them, but stay off them. For fragile roofs you should only access them from a cherry picker. (HSG33 refers page 19). Where the mainenance task is measured in minutes, then other systems of access can be considered. In any case, if it is not possible to provide a fall restraint such as netting then a cherry picker is the only LEGAL means of doing the roof maintenance.
The law regarding risk assesment is not clear in any of the HSE publications. There is mention of reducing risk 'as low as is reasonably practical' (ALARP) and the term 'reasonable practical' occures many times in the text. What does this mean?
Our company management had always assumed this meant one had a choice based upon the environment in which the work was to be carried out and the cost of providing the necessary safety facilities. For instance to change a rooflight in a machine shop which could not be netted because of the location of the machinery underneath the rooflight could cost large amounts of money to move the machinery before appropriate netting could be put in place; possibly thousands of pounds to do for a £200 roof light change! So why not just use crawling boards and harnesses in the manner we have changed the last 300,000 rooflights?
OK untill someone trips while moving material on the roof and falls through the rooflight. HSE now say that they will take the ALARP in its LEGAL sense.
The legal meaning of ALARP is taken from statutory instrument 1999/743 regulation 4 which requires 'all NECESSARY measures' to be taken to prevent major accidents and limit their consequences to persons. HSE regards this as equivalent to ALARP. Therefore if a company fails to put in place ALL safety measures that could be put in place, the manager in charge of H&S and the project supervisor can be GUILTY OF MANSLAUGHTER, wich is a criminal offence subject to a custodial sentance.
Hence the need to train my staff to use a cherry picker to change rooflights on a fagile roof. I have spent some 30 hours telephoning training companies, equipment providers and the HSE, and not one person contacted could identify where training could be obtained.
Hmm. I can see why you've reached the conclusion that you need a cherry picker for fragile roofs.
Personally I would have thought your method of using crawling boards, harness and lanyard would be considered to have reduced risk to 'as low as is reasonably practical'.
Have you tried contacting IPAF? I would have thought they could offer some advice and may know of a training provider that could help you.
Thanks for your reply.
I have contacted every company that I can think of including IPAF. None could identify any training.
Worse, the judge at a local crown court in Hove stated that the staff in a manslaughter trial were untrained even though they had attended and passed every industrial roofing and mechanical handling training course that was found to be available, including IPAF courses.
The HSE stated that the fatality would not have occured if a cherry picker had been used. And it is no good trying to plead that training is not available because it states it is an option is HS33 and other HSE publications. But as I have found out there is no training available!
Be aware that in this case the jury were not allowed to see or read the HSE publications which contain grossly ambiguous text as related in this thread.
The unlucky company owner was imprisoned for 12 months and his company closed when he was found guilty of gross negligence, basically because he did not use a cherry picked and did not consider it's use in his risk assessment.
Every area in the building industry could be subject to the ramifications of not understanding risk assessment law - IF IT CAN BE DONE THEN IT MUST BE DONE REGARDLESS OF ANY OTHER FACTORS - or else go to jail!
I may not understand this correctly, but I think that the reason you can't find anybody to provide training may be because there are two types of training needed: the use of a MEWP and how to change a roof light.
While IPAF does training on MEWPs, it doesn't offer training on how to change the rooflight. And those who would train workers on how to replace a rooflight probably wouldn't do training on the use of MEWPs.
I am told that there are special attachments for those needing to work on pitched roofs and any worker in a boom-type MEWP should be wearing a harness - this may be one route to a solution.
The MEWPs for Managers training course run by IPAF will help those in charge of such work identify the safest and most suitable way to get access to the worksite.
I have used MEWP's in the past to access Asbestos Cement roof sheeting to facilitate their removal, the reason i mention this is due to a piece of equipment used recently, it was a cherry picker with a drop down platform on the front of the basket, the workers still used harnesses having had correct training and instruction and the job went smoothly. The equipment allowing un-restricted access and a safe procedure.
The equipment was also suitable for recovery of fallen operative should that inccident have happened. Try 'Nationwide Access' or AFI (Aerials for Industry) for further equipment lists.
WMI Services Ltd:the reason i mention this is due to a piece of equipment used recently, it was a cherry picker with a drop down platform on the front of the basket
Hi - do you know what the make and model of the machine was?
I will find out for you, I will have the machine documentation somewhere.
Amiantus (formerly WMI Services Ltd)
Thanks for your reply. There is not a problem with using a machine to REMOVE a rooflight or cement roof sheet; the problem comes with the REPLACEMENT of these. The method we currently use where operatives are on the roof, is to slide the new rooflight or sheet up the old unit before the old unit is removed (vertical edges under the adjacent sheets). If you try to take out the old rooflight/sheet and then install the new unit. it is almost impossible to carry out this operation due to the weight of the adjacent sheets, and definately impossible to get the new rooflight/sheet on to the purlin above the opening (and under the sheet above). The weight just makes this impossible.
The method outlined works well while on the roof but how can it be accomplished from a MEWP basket? Is there any company willing to demonstrate the process working from a MEWP? My enquiries show that no training company in the UK could demonstrate or train in this procedure. The National Contruction College were positive that after consultation they would be able to provide training but we are still waiting for such training to be offered.
The use of a MEWP is the preferred method given by the HSE in their guidance on the subject. They must know how to carry out the operation as they show pictures in the guidance document. They are however unwilling to share their knowledge with others!
Removal is OK but have you ever tried to replace rooflights/ roofsheets from a cherry picker basket?
Hi Rooflight, can I ask for further details of the job? I am a training consultant and provide my services to a number of large and small training companies all over Europe.
The answer may not be in a specific peice of equipment but the method used. Regulations state, So far as is reasonably practicable, there are always solutions and i am confident one can be found where your workforce can operate safely and at a cost that both you and your client would find acceptable.